"Anonymous. I can tell you without fear of contadiction that a dancer does listen to the beats. If they don't they should and that goes for the lady as well."

They do not listen to the individual beats, only to the shapes and trends. That goes doubly so for the musicians - if they actually listened to the beats, they would fall hopelessly behind.

"Did your write all of that to try to prove that you don't need music to dance to. Again . Without music there is no dance spoken by Gene Kelly."

Quotes for public consumption, quite far from the truth. Try watching him without sound and you might realize the truth.

Anonymous. I'm gathering from your writting that you are one of those who thinks they can dance to the melody and don't have to count the beats. Calling the steps slows and quicks is counting beats also.
What springs to mind is Big Louie who to play dice with Frank Sinatra brings out his own dice with no spots on, and announcd he knows where they used to be. " Guys and Dolls ". is the name of the film and show.
I've had a lot of lessons from a lot of people over a long period of time. I have never met one who didn't count the timing.In our classes anyone of us can be called upon to dance to music and count the beats.Even in the junior classes they have to count and lead the class. The eldest is twelve the youngest is ten.If they or any of us get it wrong we do it again. Tough, but there is no other way.

"Anonymous. I'm gathering from your writting that you are one of those who thinks they can dance to the melody"

No, one dances to the pattern of the rhythm - but not to its invidual details.

"and don't have to count the beats."

Any music teacher will strongly advise you against counting the beats, except when initially figuring something out. Counting is almost guaranteed to put you off time, and impede you ability to respond to expressive changes by the other musicians. And as a dancer, you are one of the musicians - merely playing your body as your instrument, so the same cautions absolutely apply.

"I've had a lot of lessons from a lot of people over a long period of time. I have never met one who didn't count the timing.In our classes anyone of us can be called upon to dance to music and count the beats."

You need to know it, yes, because it is an important skill for puzzling out new things. But it is incompatible with dancing artistically - at some point you have to switch over to dancing the trends, otherwise you will never by anything more than a robot lagging pathetically behind the beat. To actually be on time, you have to generate your internal timing, and synchronize it's major features (barlines approximately) to the music. If you try to match the beats, you are guaranteed to be off time.

You must outgrow depending on counting for actually dancing, but you will never outgrow making use of it as a learning tool when attacking a challenging problem.

Anonymous.If you can't dance artistically and have the beats running through your head then something is radically wrong. I have on tape both Richard Gleave and John Wood two of the worlds leading coaches counting beats and telling us to do so.Richard Cleave on his tape tells us in training to both count aloud. Do they look like robots. Now will you tell me one person of any note who doesn't suggest counting. I would like to know who they are.I would say if you don't count then you are constantly out of time and probably don't know it either.



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"Anonymous.If you can't dance artistically and have the beats running through your head then something is radically wrong. I have on tape both Richard Gleave and John Wood two of the worlds leading coaches counting beats and telling us to do so.Richard Cleave on his tape tells us in training to both count aloud. Do they look like robots."

They are TEACHING on those tapes. They are not DANCING. So yes, they are more mechanical/robotic when they are doing it while counting than if they were purely and artistically dancing.

I seriously doubt that when these guys were out there in the winter gardens winning their titles they were counting! Counting is a TOOL, to be used in some sorts of PRACTICE and EXERCISES. But it is not compatible with DANCING.

Of course if someone else other than the dancer is counting, that might not be as disruptive.

Anononymous. I thought you would be drawn into this. Richard Gleaves says on his tape that in a competition or a demonstration he always counted every beat for at least eight bars or so. Both Richard Gleave and John Wood wth their partners are dancing and counting . Wrong once again . Once again every beat for at least eight bars. I know exactly what your answer will be to this one.

"Anononymous. I thought you would be drawn into this. Richard Gleaves says on his tape that in a competition or a demonstration he always counted every beat for at least eight bars or so."

Wierd... but "at least eight bars or so"
strongly implies that he STOPPED counting once he felt comfortable and settled into the ARTISTIC tasks of dancing.

If you stop counting and rely on feeling too soon, before your feeling is worthy of trust, you will be sloppy. But if you never stop counting and trust your feelings, you will not be DANCING.

Dancing can only occur when you move past concern for the details. Of course, you can only get away with moving past concern for the details when the details are GOOD. Counting is one TOOL that can help improve them. But it is not, ultimately a part of dancing, instead it is a part of preparing/training to dance.

Anonymous. I knew you would come into this one boots and all. From then on he counted under his breath. Next time you go to one of your world Champion teachers I would suggest you ask them if they count. You might learn something. I have met people who reckon they cannot hear the beats let alone count them. That person relies solely on their partner. I would suggest that anybody having trouble whenever they can, put a disk on and count every beat from beginning to the end in eight bar phrasing. usually there is a four bar introduction followed by 64 bars of music. The way to count is 1234 2234 3234 through to eight.As John Wood on his tape says each four beats are like the pages of a book. in a chapter we have eight pages. In the whole book we have eight chapters. Anonymous. Now do you believe the way to go is to count.
If you don't count you will have no idea whether you are dancing. 1234 or 3412. You will most likely slip from one to the other throughout the dance. Social dancing it is not going to matter. Get into competition and you'll be done. So please don't try to take dancers to your the path of wretchedness.

students count.

ARTISTS DON'T.

Sometimes artists have to go back to being students during the week, so that they can be oustanding artists on the weekend.

Anonymous. Don't write rubbish. You can't name me one teacher or coach or competitor in Latin or Modern who doesn't count. If you don't you will go off time that's garanteed. You might as well switch the music off. Do you dance to music or are you in one of those studios where there are several lessons going on at the same time and you rarely if ever get a choice of music. Is that why you insist that you don't need music to dance to. To me it would seem like it is. If that is the case and you carry on you will never be musical and on time..I know of a teacher from here who went to another state to teach. He told me he was amazed that girls there weren't counting the beats and had no idea how to.
If you ever did Latin the Rumba. With the lady often apart and and doing a different timing to the man. If both were not counting it would not be a success. The other Latin dances are the same. Unfotunately in a close hold as in Modern one or the other leaves it to there partner to keep time. Just think about it. Two people dancing, neither are capable of counting the beats. Both , as you say relying on there artistic skills which will be different. what a mess. One may hold onto a slow longer than the other completely disregarding the musical beats. One last thing. If you don't count the beats how do you tell you if it is a Waltz or a Foxtrot being played.